| Author |
 Topic  |
|
kiesling
45 Posts |
 Posted - 10/04/2005 : 4:30:28 PM
|
I agree pretty much completely with Dale.
I think we need a novice class, not a Masters class.
I have been flying in ESL contests for about 19 years now.
On the whole, to win a contest you have to get all your times
and average in the 90's for you landings. This has been a constant.
The tasks have not changed much over the years (if at all).
What has changed is the number of consistantly competative flyers.
On any given weekend there were a dozen or so people that had a
good shot at winning. Here are some names some of you may remember:
Bill Miller, Bill Meleski, Rob and Bob Teseo, Jack Cash, John Murr,
Marty Albion, Al White, Chris Bovais, and there are many more.
These days, there are still a fair number of competative flier,
or fliers that could be competative if they had a little more time
to practice/go to contests. I think what we need to do is work
to make these pilots better to give the so called Master's a better
challenge. I think this is where a mentor program will help a lot.
Some of the experts are on the verge of becoming consistantly
competative, they just need a few pointers on what to work on to make
it happen. This I think is fairly straight forward and possible if
people are willing to learn and take some advice.
The harder problem is bringing in new blood. A novice class may be
a good way of doing this. I'm not sure what the best way to
impliment such a class would be, but I think it is worth discussing.
One of the problems I noticed with the RES class at the CASA open
is that the launch equipment was not well suited for the entry level
models (Gentle Lady etc.) The winch line and retrievers made it
difficult to launch those models. So perhaps a novice class could
have a more suitible winch set up.
With a novice class, the sportflyer class could be more like its
namesake. People that don't have the time, or don't want to spend
the time/effort to be competative with the experts (or Masters)
can compete comfortably in the sportflyer class.
From what I can gather, there are a lot of people that want to have
a shot at the "Masters" on an equal level. From the split list
that Jose posted, I can tell you that taking that opportunity away
will not go over well with most of them. I know that if I was on
the wrong side of the cut list, I would take offense to not being
allowed to compete in the same class as those that I wanted beat.
It is kind of like the coach putting you on the Junior varsity team
when you know you have what it takes to play on varsity.
While personally, I like Dale's idea of having longer tasks for
the Master's class, I think as proposed it would not go over well
for the above reasons. Perhaps it would work with the novice class
approach - have the novices fly one task, the sportflyers something
longer, and the Experts the longest. . .
Tom
quote:
Originally posted by dalehart
I don't feel the Master's class as proposed will truly solve any problems. I think we would be better off focusing on gaining more Sportsman pilots. If we are losing a significant number of Expert pilots because they do not feel competitive, then it might be worthwhile assigning classes each year based on the previous year's average performance. Personally, I still don’t feel you have won a contest unless you perform better than every other pilot at the field that day. Adding another class doesn’t really change anything.
If we do go ahead with a Masters class, I would like to suggest a change that would make the class more meaningful. How about adding 5 minutes to the task times for Masters? At least this way winning Expert class would mean something, since they would not be flying the same event as Masters. Taking this one step further, how about a typical contest being 7 minute maxes for Sportsman, 10 minute maxes for Expert, and 12 or 15 minute maxes for Masters? That would challenge our best pilots, and make Sportsman an easier class for beginners to start out in. This would be closer to how R/C pattern is flown, where each class is a stepping-stone to the next class. As you move up to a new class, not only do you fly against better pilots, but also the event itself becomes more challenging.
Dale
|
 |
|
|
tbroeski
24 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2005 : 06:36:40 AM
|
YES
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Walter
There seems to be some confusion over exactly how this Master class will be treated during the contest and for scoring purposes. Here's my understanding of Tom Broeski's proposal:
1. The Master class consists of the Top 5 pilots from the previous year.
2. During competition, a Master pilot is treated just like we treat an Expert now. The Master flies in the Expert flight group. The Master's final score is still a percentage of the best score of the day, even if that score was earned by an Expert.
3. At the completion of the contest, the Expert awards are presented to the top Expert pilots. The Master pilots would not be given any trophies, but I would recommend that the top Master pilots be called by name and their overall place in the competition stated. If they do well, they should still get public recognition.
4. The overall standings maintained by the ESL scorekeeper throughout the season should keep the Master pilots in with the Experts. As someone else suggested, a Master pilot is just another Expert with perhaps a star next to the name. The Experts and Masters must be scored together in order to determine who will be in the Master class next year.
5. The rules for Sportsman remain the same as before.
6. At the end of the season, the top ten awards are presented. For Sportsman there is no change. For Expert and Master, we need to make a decision: I propose that regardless of class (Expert or Master), the top ten pilots are awarded ESL season trophies. The top five become the Master class for the next season. And the top Master of the current season has his name inscribed on the Top Master trophy. I like the Stanley Cup concept... one nice trophy you get to hang on to for a year and show all your friends, impress co-workers, etc. Then you bring it to the year end contest so it's available for the next winner. Of course, we could also present a conventional award that stays with the pilot permanently.
Tom B: Have I stated your case for the Master class correctly?
Dave
T&G
32 Mount View Dr
Afton, VA 22920
540 943-3356 |
|
|
|
George
1 Posts |
Posted - 10/14/2005 : 10:53:13 PM
|
I like some of Dale's ideas about having two classes (Expert and Sportsman) where every year each ESL pilot is evaluated on the prior seasons performance and assigned to either Expert or Sportsman based on that performance. The lower half of the ladder being Sportsmen and the upper half being Experts. This would create a more realistic and competitive environment for both classes. Clearly some Experts don't belong in Expert and some Sportsmen should be in Expert. It would have the added advantage of increasing attendance at contests since the Experts on the margin would go to extra contests in an effort to keep their Expert status.
It was suggested at the EOS meeting that were this system adopted, would be Sportsmen could elect to be Experts in the coming season. This sort of defeats the purpose of the system. I hope to achieve Expert status someday. I want to earn that status, I don't want to just declare myself an Expert. To me Expert is a badge of honor. It's a term that implies a skill set way above the ordinary in any endeavor. I think it should be earned each season, not given as a lifetime deed.
George |
|
|
|
kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 3:10:11 PM
|
George,
The problem I see with this system is that some true experts may get bumped down into sportflyer. Not to pick on Josh, but he makes a good example of what could happen. He has a fixed number of contests he can go to. He will not go to more contests because of a new system, if anything he would likely stop going to contests if you bump him down into sportflyer. While Josh only attended 5 contests and posted 4 good scores, it is concievable that he could have attended 6 contests and still only posted 4 good scores. In the one bad contest, his model failed on launch. Based on the number of models Josh went through this season, it is not inconcievable that if he went to a sixth contest, he may of had another failure and another bad score. So now he would have two bad scores and get bumped to sportflyer.
With the system you are proposing you would now have to compete directly with Josh (if he showed up at an ESL contest ever again). doesn't seem fair to me. How about you?
Please keep in mind that most of the people in expert class did earn
their way there. I think this effort deserves the respect of giving them the choice to remain or go back to sportflyer if they qualify. I know that most of them enjoy the challenge of trying to beat the guys in the top five. For example, I certainly would not want to be the one to have denied Luis Bustamante his Expert win at the ESL open the other weekend by implementing a mandatory demotion system.
Unfortunately it is not a black and white world and we have to make compromises to keep people content. It is a fragile balance. Also, it has always been the sportflyers option to fly in expert. The ESL has never restricted this. The ESL has only defined criterior for when a sportflyer must advance to expert and a critierior for when they are allowed to move back if they choose. Once you have declared yourself an Expert you must meet this criterior to move back - and it is this criterior that discussed at the ESL meeting and are evaluating to perhaps make it easier for those that feel out of place in expert to move back to sportflyer - especially with the advent of the novice class.
Tom |
Edited by - kiesling on 10/17/2005 3:16:51 PM |
|
|
|
Fly2High
70 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2005 : 7:14:05 PM
|
My suggestion is to not use the cumulative scoring to dertemine status but rather use a person's average score as a benchmark for their skill. This way even if I attend only a few contests the Experts would still do better than a percentage of the flyers and would maintain their status.
When it comes to liking to compete with those better than you why hasn't someone voiced the same opinion for the Sportsman. If a demoted Expert is flying with Sportsman, they will be the person to beat in that category. Everyone wants to see how they fair against someone better than they are. In Sportsman, they probably wouldn't look to the elite Experts (Masters) for comparison but rather the lower Experts.
Also, having some demoted Experts in Sportsman may help Sportsman fly better by sharing the same air with a better pilot.
If a demoted Expert is trully worthy of Expert then they would win a couple of Sportsman contests and would go back rather quickly anyway. |
|
|
|
kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 12:20:39 AM
|
The way the ESL class system works is that you have to stay in the class for a complete year. It has to be this way to determine the season standings for each class.
Even with the average score approach, the example I give above would still demote someone like Josh back to sportflyer. In fact it could demote even more qualified experts back to sportflyer if you average all their contest scores.
Also, keep in mind that not all contests are man on man (I hope this changes). With an open winch contest it is easy to directly compare across classes. With man on man it is possible to fly the sportflyers together with the experts, but I think this may be very discouraging for some. With the introduction of the novice class, this may not be as much of an issue.
Tom |
|
|
|
D_Ryan
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 4:01:47 PM
|
Tom;
Consider this response more of an attempt to "poll" the Sportsmen class pilots, and offer my own comments as well... Feel free to "bump" it to another thread if need be.
I read the occasional comment about how a Sportsman competing directly against an expert class pilot would be discouraged at having to do so; is this really the overwhelming sentiment, and if so what is the general source of the discouragement?
As I stated in another post, I'm out there to always fly my best; to make the task time and to make my landings. The other individuals in the air at the same time are of less consequence, except perhaps to serve as a hint to what the air is doing. Do I occasionally suffer 'model envy' because I'm not stepping up to the line with the latest moldie, perhaps, but it doesn't dilute the joy of flying with a group of skilled pilots.
I've had the pleasure of attending rounds of the F3J Eurotour when living abroad (as a spectator only, let's make that perfectly clear), and witnessed many instances where several "expert" pilots within a flight group were dealt a burial, and were back for a relight half way through the flight window. Coming down early, failing to make one's time, can happen to any pilot of any skill level (some are just more susceptible than others).
Man-on-man, regardless of pilot classification, is an opportunity I personally would welcome. If I come back early, I may be embarassed, and upset with my performance, but I won't be discouraged. What I will be is introspective, reviewing my flight to see what others did better than I, that enabled them to make their times.
Separate the pilots by classification at the end of the contest (and in the case of seeded man-on-man, as the rounds progress) not at the beginning. |
|
|
|
jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 4:12:58 PM
|
I totaly agree with you. When I was a sportsman I had no problem flying against experts. I always measured my performance against the experts. But today some/many have expressed that they are inhibited by flying against experts, or that they can't compete so why bother. Some have said it is too competitive.. So what can you do. You can't please everyone. You hope to please the most you can, but also make it fair. BTW I think you have the right attitude ... it parallels mine .
quote:
Originally posted by D_Ryan
Tom;
Consider this response more of an attempt to "poll" the Sportsmen class pilots, and offer my own comments as well... Feel free to "bump" it to another thread if need be.
I read the occasional comment about how a Sportsman competing directly against an expert class pilot would be discouraged at having to do so; is this really the overwhelming sentiment, and if so what is the general source of the discouragement?
As I stated in another post, I'm out there to always fly my best; to make the task time and to make my landings. The other individuals in the air at the same time are of less consequence, except perhaps to serve as a hint to what the air is doing. Do I occasionally suffer 'model envy' because I'm not stepping up to the line with the latest moldie, perhaps, but it doesn't dilute the joy of flying with a group of skilled pilots.
I've had the pleasure of attending rounds of the F3J Eurotour when living abroad (as a spectator only, let's make that perfectly clear), and witnessed many instances where several "expert" pilots within a flight group were dealt a burial, and were back for a relight half way through the flight window. Coming down early, failing to make one's time, can happen to any pilot of any skill level (some are just more susceptible than others).
Man-on-man, regardless of pilot classification, is an opportunity I personally would welcome. If I come back early, I may be embarassed, and upset with my performance, but I won't be discouraged. What I will be is introspective, reviewing my flight to see what others did better than I, that enabled them to make their times.
Separate the pilots by classification at the end of the contest (and in the case of seeded man-on-man, as the rounds progress) not at the beginning.
Jeff Steifel |
|
|
|
kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 4:22:54 PM
|
Hi Dave,
I appreciate your attitude and think it is a healthy approach. I would be more comfortable with mixing experts with the sportflyers in man on man competition if we had bigger groups (ie a bigger statistical sample). As it stands for man on man
contests in the ESL we typically have about 4-5 people in a group. So, my concern is that if you get some sportflyers in a group with some of the less experienced experts, they may get an easier score than a group that has the more experienced experts. Perhaps it wouldn't play out like this, but my experience tells me otherwise. I know that if I was a sportflyer and got pounded by one of the top 5 experts I wouldn't be happy if I got beat by another sportflyer who got the same flight time as me, but got a higher normalized score since he was in a group with less experienced experts.
If all the sportflyers were willing to accept this then I would be fine with it. However, I still do not think it is the most fair method of determining who the best sportflyer is for a given contest.
Tom |
|
|
|
D_Ryan
5 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 5:10:08 PM
|
Tom;
Your point is valid. To bring up what could become an organizational nightmare (and rehash the subject of another discussion thread), wouldn't seeded man-on-man eliminate those scoring discrepancies as rounds were flown?
If the concern is that there are not enough rounds flown on a given day to smooth out those variances, couldn't you treat Saturday and Sunday as "part 1" and "part 2", and sum the results of all rounds flown across those two days. I would imagine that would generate enough data points (in the form of flight scores) to overcome those exceptions?
I know this would play havoc with calculating ESL standings, because it would effectively reduce the number of contest results/year by half. Which is the lesser of two evils?
It's just hypothetical, and I feel somewhat reluctant to speak out at all as one who has only participated in one ESL event, and who was not present at the EOS meeting.
|
|
|
|
jsteifel
40 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 6:06:36 PM
|
It won't work. The bylaws state one day contests. What happens if you run a 2 day contest? Well guys that can only make one day won't show up. So you have negatively effected the contest turnout. So we really can't do it. The seeded mom still has my interest. wihout trying it a couple of times I don't think I have a clue has to how it will help or hurt. I'd like to try it, but I think it was pretty much downplayed at the EOS meeting. Again it is up to the contest director to take the lead and call for a seeded mom... I hope someone does.
quote:
Originally posted by D_Ryan
Tom;
Your point is valid. To bring up what could become an organizational nightmare (and rehash the subject of another discussion thread), wouldn't seeded man-on-man eliminate those scoring discrepancies as rounds were flown?
If the concern is that there are not enough rounds flown on a given day to smooth out those variances, couldn't you treat Saturday and Sunday as "part 1" and "part 2", and sum the results of all rounds flown across those two days. I would imagine that would generate enough data points (in the form of flight scores) to overcome those exceptions?
I know this would play havoc with calculating ESL standings, because it would effectively reduce the number of contest results/year by half. Which is the lesser of two evils?
It's just hypothetical, and I feel somewhat reluctant to speak out at all as one who has only participated in one ESL event, and who was not present at the EOS meeting.
Jeff Steifel |
|
|
|
kiesling
45 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 7:08:55 PM
|
The seeded man on man would solve a lot of these problems for sure. The only problem that I see with it is it takes more time. You have to figure out the groups, then those people have to find timers etc. I estimate that you would loose 1 or more rounds over the conventional man on man. With some practice this time may be reduced.
Tom |
|
|
|
Fritz
19 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2005 : 9:13:30 PM
|
Losing one or two rounds may not be all that catastrophic. Some of us more experienced guys get tired after 8 rounds of flying and timing non-stop.
OTOH if we separate out the novices, haven't we just gotten back to the system we already have? We've just redefined the old Sportsman catagory as anyone who has flown in less than 6 2-day contests, and everybody else is in the same pool.
-Fritz |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
One year trial Master's class: Dave Walter
Forum Locked
